Decoder with Nilay Patel

Panos Panay is in charge of devices and services at Amazon — that's everything from Alexa and Kindle to Ring, Eero, and even the Project Kuiper satellite internet service that's meant to compete with Starlink. He's led the team through giving Alexa a big AI infusion which is what drew him to Amazon after nearly 20 years with Microsoft. Like so many folks in tech, he sees AI as a platform shift that will change the way we use computers. Fair warning: We talk about Alexa a lot in this one, so you might want to go mute your Alexa device mics now. Links: With Alexa Plus, Amazon finally reinvents its best product | Verge The future of the Kindle with Panos Panay | Vergecast Amazon announces AI-powered Alexa Plus | Verge All of the announcements from Amazon’s Alexa Plus event | Verge Alexa Plus arrives with promise but plenty of questions | Verge Amazon Leadership Principles | Amazon How Amazon runs Alexa, with Dave Limp (2021) | Decoder Alexa loses her voice | YouTube Humane is shutting down the AI pin | Verge Mike Krieger wants to build AI products that are worth the hype | Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/621232 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, deputy editor of The Verge. I’m guest hosting today’s episode while Nilay is still away for a much-needed vacation. He’ll be back next week. But today, we’re diving into the bromance between Elon Musk and Donald Trump, and more specifically, how it’s impacting the changing right-wing political movement here in the United States. There’s no better place to get that temperature check than CPAC. Musk showed up there this year for a wild interview — you may have seen clips of him waving around a literal chainsaw. Thankfully, Verge policy Gaby del Valle was on the ground this year, and as you’ll hear her say, she barely slept. But she got a front-row look at how the world of MAGA really feels about Elon, DOGE, and regulating Big Tech. Links: I cannot describe how strange Elon Musk’s CPAC appearance was | Verge At CPAC, the world’s populists parrot the leader who inspired them | Politico Government still threatening to ‘semi-fire’ workers who don’t answer Musk email | Verge Saying ‘no’ to Musk | NYT What that chainsaw was really about | NYT Sequins, merch, chainsaws: Trump’s return to CPAC | NYT Bannon calls Musk a ‘parasitic illegal immigrant’ | NYT New York got $80 Million for migrants. The White House took it back | NYT Federal technology staffers resign rather than help Musk and DOGE | AP National Park Service layoffs, hiring delays impact visitors | NPR Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vimeo started many years ago as something of an artsier, more creative competitor to YouTube. Its last CEO, Anjali Sud, took the company through a pretty huge transformation into an enterprise software company, and we had her on the show to talk about that transformation a couple years ago. Now, her successor, new CEO Philip Moyer, not only has to decide what parts of that strategy are working, but also how to navigate the addition of AI to the mix, and deal with the basic math of the creator economy: The amount of video in the world is exploding, but the total amount of time a person can spend watching any of it is pretty fixed. So with AI adding to the volume, how is anyone going to be able to make any money at all? Links: How Anjali Sud reinvented Vimeo | Decoder (2021) How Dropout is taking control with Vimeo OTT | Vimeo Squarespace CEO Anthony Casalena on making a website in 2023 | Decoder Wix CEO Avishai Abrahami on why the web isn’t dying | Decoder NBCU’s streaming chief isn’t worried about you canceling cable | Decoder Vimeo names new CMO as it focuses on business video | WSJ The truth about Vimeo and YouTube SEO | Vimeo Google’s counteroffer to a breakup is unbundling Android apps | Verge China opens Google antitrust probe in retaliation to tariffs | Verge Vimeo’s position on AI | Vimeo Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/616820 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is David Pierce, editor-at-large at The Verge. Nilay is off this week for a much-deserved break. So I’m filling in for him, and the Decoder team thought this would be a good opportunity to switch gears a little bit from the political apocalypse beat and talk about something completely different. So today we’re diving into the video game industry and discussing a particular set of very thorny problems facing Microsoft and its Xbox division. I invited Ash Parrish, The Verge’s video game reporter, to discuss the issues facing Xbox, Microsoft’s big ambitions with its Game Pass subscription service, and why the game industry hasn’t had its Netflix or Spotify moment yet. Links: Xbox continues its push beyond consoles with new ad campaign | Verge The next Xbox is going to be very different | Verge 2025 looks like a great year for Xbox | Verge Microsoft prepares to take Xbox everywhere | Verge Microsoft and Google are fighting over the future of Xbox | Verge Microsoft was the No.1 games publisher in the world last month | VGC Xbox games in Game Pass ‘can lose 80% of premium sales’ | VGC Phil Spencer: No ‘red lines’ over Xbox games coming to Switch, PlayStation | Eurogamer Microsoft’s Xbox turmoil isn’t slowing down | Verge Microsoft says Game Pass is profitable as subscription growth slows | Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The First Amendment, protecting free speech and free media, is a pillar of US law. It is, famously, the first one. We don’t usually tolerate government interference with speech. So it’s been disconcerting these first few weeks of the second Trump administration to realize suddenly, there’s a nonzero chance the government will punish our work. FCC Chairman Brendan Carr is absolutely determined to turn all that talk about the media being the enemy of the people into concrete legal action — incredibly serious, unprecedented attacks on free speech. Links: Carr’s emerging agenda and its dangerous effects | Tech Policy Press Trump’s MAGA enforcer is having ‘the time of his life’ | The Daily Beast FCC to investigate Comcast for having DEI programs | The Verge Trump amends CBS ’60 Minutes’ lawsuit & demands $20 billion | LA Times No Apology Over Trump Lawsuit, ‘60 Minutes’ Top Producer Says | New York Times The FCC is investigating NPR and PBS | The Verge ABC News to pay $15 million to settle Trump defamation suit | Wall Street Journal Top Trump donor wants SCOTUS to reverse press protection | The New Republic Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Senator Ron Wyden, a democrat and the senior senator from Oregon. He’s been in the Senate for almost 30 years, which makes him one of longest serving members of the institution. We scheduled this interview with Senator Wyden a while ago — he’s got a new book out called “It Takes Chutzpah: How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change.” But recent events made it vastly more important to talk about the state of our federal government – and specifically, what Elon Musk and DOGE are doing as they seize power in various federal agencies. So right up front and very bluntly, I wanted to ask Wyden: What is even going on? And can even he and his fellow senators keep up with it? Links: It Takes Chutzpah | Hachette Book Group DOGE wreaked havoc on the government in just one week | Verge “For all practical purposes, I’d call that a coup.” | Verge Elon Musk’s presidency is just getting started | Decoder Elon Musk’s computer coup | Vergecast Can anyone stop President Musk? | Verge Demand for GAO to investigate what Elon is doing at Treasury [PDF] Senator Has Dire Warning About Letting Elon Musk Run Wild | New Republic “Trump and Bessent are asking you not to believe what’s playing out right in front of your eyes.” | Wyden (Bluesky) “My message to Musk is simple: get your hands off our money and get the hell out.” Wyden (Bluesky) Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re discussing a very big problem with extremely far-reaching consequences: Do we still have a functional federal government here in the United States? And how much of it has been handed entirely to Elon Musk? If you’ve been following the news, you know there’s a lot here that’s unfolding very fast, but I wanted to know how all these changes are affecting the people who’ve so far been the most newly supportive of Trump because they have the most to lose – the money, the billionaires. So I invited New York Times reporter Teddy Schleiffer, who’s been covering this closely every day since the inauguration, on the show to help break it down. Links: Inside Musk's aggressive incursion into the federal government | NYT ‘The biggest heist in American history’: DC is just waking up to Musk’s takeover | Verge ‘Scared and betrayed’ — workers are reeling from chaos at federal agencies | Verge Treasury Department sued over DOGE takeover | Verge Can anyone stop President Musk? | Verge Elon Musk’s team one has access to Treasury’s payments system | NYT Elon Musk’s bureaucratic coup | Atlantic Trump: Elon Musk won't do anything 'without our approval' | NBC News The young, inexperienced engineers aiding Musk’s government takeover | Wired USDS head Mina Hsiang wants big tech to help fix government (2023) | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Andy Hunter is the CEO of Bookshop.org, a website he launched in 2020 that lets local bookshops sell all over the country. He always meant it to compete directly with Amazon, and the timing of that launch right into the teeth of the pandemic meant it was able to start strong and grow quickly. Now Bookshop is selling ebooks, which is another market hugely dominated by Amazon. For Andy and Bookshop to get what they want, they’re probably going to have to gear up for a big fight. It’s kind of the app store question all over again, just like the big cases Epic had against Apple and Google, and it's all prime Decoder territory. Links: Bookshop is launching an ebook store to take on Amazon | The Verge As greenwashing soars, some question B Corp certification | BBC ‘The Goliath is Amazon’: After 100 years, B&N wants to go back to its roots | Decoder How Bookshop survives and thrives in Amazon’s world | Wired Apple to pay $450M after Supreme Court denies price-fixing appeal [2016] | The Verge Epic Games vs Apple | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/604809 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re talking about DeepSeek, and how the open source AI model built by a Chinese startup has completely upended the conventional wisdom around chatbots, what they can do, and how much they should cost to develop. We’re also talking about Stargate, OpenAI’s new $500 billion data center venture that’s supposed to supercharge domestic AI infrastructure. Both stand in stark contrast with one another — and represent a new, escalating front in the US-China relationship and the geopolitics of AI. Verge senior AI reporter Kylie Robison joins me to break it all down. Links: Why everyone is freaking out about DeepSeek | Verge DeepSeek FAQ | Stratechery DeepSeek: all the news about the startup that’s shaking up AI stocks | Verge OpenAI and Softbank are starting a $500 billion AI data center company | Verge The AI spending frenzy is just getting started | Command Line After DeepSeek, VCs face questions about AI investments | NYT Satya Nadella on Stargate: ‘All I know is I’m good for my $80 billion’ | Verge OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor | FT DeepSeek sparks global AI selloff, Nvidia loses about $593 billion of value | Reuters Four big reasons to worry about DeepSeek (and four reasons to calm down) | Platformer Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Gary Smith, CEO of the networking company Ciena. You probably aren’t familiar with Ciena — the company isn’t really a household name. But every internet user has relied on the company’s products; Ciena makes the hardware and software that makes the fiber optic cables connecting the world light up with data. That’s everything from local fiber networks for broadband ISPs to the massive undersea cables that connect continents. There’s a high probability that this very podcast came to you over a Ciena network, in fact — the company is everywhere. That means almost every single Decoder idea is right here, sitting on the backbone of the internet. Links: What is WDM or DWDM? | Ciena Southern Cross achieves first 1 Tb/s Transmission across Pacific with Ciena | Ciena The invisible seafaring industry that keeps the internet afloat | Verge The internet really is a series of tubes | Vergecast Meta is building the ‘mother of all’ subsea cables | Verge Ciena CEO: Prepare for the AI wave | Fierce Network The secret life of the 500-plus cables that run the internet CNET Fiber-Optic Technology Draws Record Stock Value | NYT Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24115288 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s been a messy couple of weeks for big tech companies as the second Trump administration kicks off an unprecedented era of how we think about who controls the internet. Right now, there's a major collision, or maybe merger, happening between billionaire power and state power, and everyone who uses tech to communicate — so, basically everyone — is stuck in the middle. I sat down with law professor and online speech expert Kate Klonick to break it all down. Links: Welcome to the era of gangster tech regulation | Verge Trump signs order refusing to enforce TikTok ban for 75 days | Verge Inside Zuckerberg’s sprint to remake Meta for Trump era | New York Times The internet’s future is looking bleaker by the day | Wired Meta is highlighting a splintering global approach to online speech | Verge Mark Zuckerberg lies about content moderation to Joe Rogan’s face | Verge Meta’s ‘tipping point’ is about aligning with power | WashPo Meta is preparing for an autocratic future | Tech Policy Press Meta surrenders to the right on speech | Platformer We’re all trying to find the guy who did this | Atlantic Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Matt Garman, the CEO of Amazon Web Services. Matt took over as CEO last June — you might recall that we had his predecessor Adam Selipsky on the show just over a year ago. That makes this episode terrific Decoder bait, since I love hearing how new CEOs will decide what to change and what to keep going after they’ve settled into their role. Links: There’s no AI without the cloud, says AWS CEO Adam Selipsky | Decoder Amazon's AWS to invest $11 bln in Georgia to boost AI infrastructure | Reuters Netflix’s Ted Sarandos responds to Jake Paul-Mike Tyson glitches | THR The furious contest to unseat Nvidia as king of AI chips | NYT Amazon’s moonshot plan to rival Nvidia in AI chips | Bloomberg Amazon invests another $4 billion in Anthropic | The Verge Why Netflix never goes down | The Verge Sam Altman lowers the bar for AGI | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24102212 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, Nilay here. We’re still on winter break; we’ll be back with brand-new Decoder interviews next week, and with our Thursday shows later this month. I’m excited for what we’ve got in the pipeline. I think you’re going to love it. For today, though, we’re sharing an episode of Peter Kafka’s new show Channels – he’s talking to disinformation researcher Renee DiResta about what’s going on with speech online in an era where platforms seem less inclined to moderate than ever. Peter’s an old friend and Renee is an expert on all this — there’s a lot of core Decoder themes in this one. Enjoy, and we’ll be back in a bit. Links: Channels with Peter Kafka | Apple Podcasts The Stanford Internet Observatory is being dismantled | Platformer A major disinformation research center’s future looks uncertain | The Verge Supreme Court to hear case on how government talks to social platforms | The Verge GOP targets researchers who study disinformation ahead of 2024 Election | NYT She warned of ‘peer-to-peer misinformation.’ Congress listened | NYT Disinformation watchdogs are under pressure. This group refuses to stop | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Decoder team turns the tables on Nilay and makes him answer your burning listener questions in our end-of-year wrap up special. We also reflect on the year’s biggest Decoder themes, discuss some of the most popular feedback we’ve received, and tease what we have planned for next year. Links: Here we go: The Verge now has a subscription | The Verge Intuit asked us to delete part of this Decoder episode | Decoder What’s really behind Big Tech’s return-to-office mandates? | Decoder Rabbit CEO Jesse Lyu isn’t thinking too far ahead | Decoder Transparent Vice | The Verge UiPath CEO Daniel Dines thinks automation can fight the great resignation | Decoder Palmer Luckey, American Vulcan | Tablet A revolution in how robots learn | The New Yorker Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we’re talking about antitrust policy and tech, which is at a particularly weird moment as we enter the second Trump administration. A lot of tech policy is at a weird moment, actually, but antitrust might be the weirdest of them all — the pendulum has swung back and forth on antitrust policy pretty wildly over the past few years, and it’s about to swing again under Trump. So I asked Leah Nylen, an antitrust reporter for Bloomberg News and a leading expert on this subject, to come on the show and help break it all down. Links: Trump’s antitrust trio heralds Big Tech crackdown to continue | Bloomberg Trump picks FTC Commissioner Andrew Ferguson to lead the agency | Politico Trump picks Gail Slater to head Justice Department's antitrust division | Reuters Trump names Brendan Carr as his FCC leader | The Verge Trump’s FTC pick promises to go after ‘censorship’ from tech companies | The Verge Breaking down the DOJ’s plan to end Google’s search monopoly | The Verge US v. Google redux: all the news from the ad tech trial | The Verge Tech leaders kiss the ring | The Verge DOJ antitrust chief is ‘overjoyed’ after Google monopoly verdict | Decoder This is Big Tech’s playbook for swallowing the AI industry | Command Line Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Alex Heath, Deputy Editor at The Verge, guest hosts this episode of Decoder featuring a live interview with Arm CEO Rene Haas about the future of AI and the semiconductor industry. The two discuss his thoughts on the struggles of Intel, the rumors Arm is developing its own AI chips to rival Nvidia’s, and his thoughts on the incoming Trump administration. Links: What Arm’s CEO makes of the Intel debacle | Command Line How Arm conquered the chip market without making a single chip | Decoder Arm could be the unexpected winner of the AI investment boom | FT Arm to reportedly launch AI chips by 2025 to capture explosive demand | CNBC Intel’s CEO is out after only three years | The Verge What happened to Intel? | The Verge Nvidia plans ARM-based PC platform to rival Intel, AMD | DigiTimes Qualcomm x Arm beef escalates | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24084728 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’ve been talking a lot this year about the changing internet, and what it’s doing to the media ecosystem — particularly journalism, which has taken a backseat to creators and influencers. But the tech platforms themselves have a lot of influence over what those creators and influencers make, too. If you’re a Decoder listener, you’ll recognize this as one of my common themes — the idea that the way we distribute media directly influences the media we make. To break this all down, I invited media critic and labor union president Matt Pearce on the show to discuss a great blog he wrote titled “Lessons on media policy at the slaughter-bench of history.” We get into what mechanisms can be used to fund journalism, and how building a direct audience and exercising control over distribution is more pivotal than ever. Links: Lessons on media policy at the slaughter-bench of history | Matt Pearce Journalism's fight for survival in a postliterate democracy | Matt Pearce A deep dive into Google's shady (and shoddy) California journalism deal | Matt Pearce Google Zero is here — now what? | Decoder Casey Newton on surviving the great media collapse and what comes next | Decoder Illusory Truth Effect | The Decision Lab The people who ruined the internet | The Verge Another independent site says Google killed its business | The Verge Google ‘can’t guarantee’ that independent sites will recover | The Verge Owner of Los Angeles Times Plans ‘Bias Meter’ Next to Coverage | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There’s something strange happening these days in the podcast world — in particular, the way companies that deal in money have been using podcasting as not just an entertainment medium, but a unique kind of hybrid of marketing, thought leadership, and networking. Guest host David Pierce and Vulture podcast critic Nick Quah break it all down. Links: How Venture Capitalists Use Podcasts to Lure in Founders | Vanity Fair Your Next Podcast Interview Might Be a Meeting In Disguise | Bloomberg Elliott launches podcast in attack ploy aimed at Southwest | Axios How podcasts became the new battleground state | Vulture In the “Podcast Election,” Trump talked to vastly more people | Edison Research Podcasts become politician magnets | Axios Founders of podcast ‘Acquired’ are raising an investment fund | GeekWire Podcaster-turned-VC Harry Stebbings raises $400m for third fund | Sifted Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. Mustafa is a fascinating character in the world of AI — he’s been in and out of some pivotal companies like DeepMind, which he cofounded, and Google. He landed at Microsoft through a unique not-quite-acquisition deal of his latest startup, Inflection AI. As CEO of Microsoft AI, Mustafa now oversees all of its consumer AI products, including the Copilot app, Bing, and even the Edge browser and MSN — two core components of the web experience that feel like they’re radically changing in a world of AI. The company has also a unique relationship with OpenAI, one that’s grown more complicated of late. That’s a lot of Decoder bait, and we really get into it. Links: Google DeepMind co-founder joins Microsoft as CEO of its new AI division | The Verge This is Big Tech’s playbook for swallowing the AI industry | Command Line The new AI deal: buy everything but the company | NYT Sam Altman lowers the bar for AGI | The Verge OpenAI seeks to unlock investment by ditching ‘AGI’ clause with Microsoft | FT ​​Microsoft needs to win back trust | The Verge Microsoft’s AI boss thinks it’s okay to steal content if it’s on the open web | The Verge Read Microsoft’s optimistic memo about the future of AI companions | The Verge ​​Microsoft gives Copilot a voice and vision in its biggest redesign yet | The Verge How Microsoft is thinking about the future of Copilot and AI hardware | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24078862 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

AI investment is massive, but AI profits are not — and yet investors seem confident massive AI fundraising will one day translate into sizable AI profits. To break it down, Verge Deputy Editor Alex Heath guest hosts this episode of Decoder featuring Menlo Ventures partner Tim Tilly and AirStreet Capital founder Nathan Benaich. Links: 2024: The State of Generative AI in the Enterprise | Menlo Ventures State of AI Report | Nathan Benaich AI Index Report 2024 | Stanford HAL How companies are spending on AI right now | Tech Brew OpenAI Is growing fast and burning through piles of money | NYT Amazon to invest another $4 billion in OpenAI rival Anthropic | The Verge Agents are the future AI companies promise — and desperately need | The Verge Anthropic’s latest AI update can use a computer on its own | The Verge OpenAI reportedly plans to launch an AI agent early next year | The Verge Is AI hitting a wall? | Command Line Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices